Sri T. Krishnamacharya
BKS Iyengar, interviewed by Rajvi H. Mehta

[Yoga Rahasya, Vol B, pp 142-150]

Guruji, could you please recount some of your initial encounters with your Guruji, whom you first met as your brother-in-law?

Firstly, let me tell you that there is no question of having a formal encounter as it is conventionally understood. One had to obey the dictates of one's master. It is only much later, when some understanding sets into the body and the mind, that the encounters come. I was 15 when I first came in contact with my guru, Sri T Krishnamacharya. My stay with him was only for two years. The age difference between my guru and me was so much that it was but natural that reverence and respect for him would always be there. Hence there were no formal encounters as such; all encounters were within myself. The problem started only within myself, when the mind and body were not ready to accept the 'orders' given by my Guruji.

For example, I am teaching something and if you cannot accept or perform then naturally I have to come down to your physical and mental capabilities and teach. But in my case it was not so. Any instruction of his was an order and if not followed, we had to face the consequences. That was the life with gurus in the earlier days. I could not withstand this because since birth my health was a perennial problem. And to regain my lost health was not an easy task. Though my Guruji taught me a few asanas at this stage, he would not elaborate further on the practice. I would say that it was a disinterested relationship between us and the only bond was that I was his wife's brother. At that time, his interest in me was only casual and he was dependent on me to perform several household chores and duties for him. The huge gap between us in the field of yoga was obvious. There were no discussions, no exchange of views at this stage at all. I think it was destiny which played a big role at this stage.

One fine day a young boy, Keshavamurthi, who was the favourite shishya of Guruji, left without telling anybody. As I said earlier, my guru was a very strong disciplinarian and secondly he was highly intellectually intoxicated. The development of his intelligence and the corresponding growth of our intelligence was not the same at all, and so he became very difficult to live with. The void created by the sudden departure of this boy was what made him to concentrate his attention on me. It was not that I was the only other student. There were others also. There was one Mr Bhatt, who used to teach in Bombay, and another three to four students. Today there are just three of us alive: Patabhi Jois, Ranganathan Desikachar and myself. So these were the earliest students of my guru. Before that also, there were one or two students but my Guruji was never keen on teaching yoga. It was just a hobby for him.

In 1927-28 and the 1930s, you will be surprised to know that he was working in a coffee plantation as a forest officer before I joined him. Imagine a man of his calibre, well-versed in Samkhya, Nyaya, Yoga, Tarka, Vendanta, and Mimamsa working as a forest officer in a coffee plantation near Mysore. Why I am saying this is to show you that people at that time were not interested in yoga and it was just a hobby for him. So he had not achieved much in the field of yoga until the Maharaja commissioned him to start the yogashala. After two years or so, he left the job and started giving lectures in Vendanta. There were no public demonstrations in those days. There were just talks given by him because he was a scholar. So even for him to take up yoga as a profession was a tough choice.

When my Guruji arrived in Mysore, somebody suggested his name to the Maharaja as a man who spoke well on esoteric subjects and to have at least a discussion with him on philosophical subjects. That is how they came in contact and was employed as a philosophy professor in the Sanskrit college. However, he could not continue as the students rebelled because, like I had said earlier, his intellectual calibre would not fit with the intellectual abilities of his students. So after a year or so, due to the complaints, they stopped his tuitions. This compelled him to start yoga classes in the Jaganmohan Palace. Students like Patabhi Jois, Ranganatha Desikachar, who were all students in the Sanskrit Pathshala, became his students. It was only after the yogashala came into existence that I joined my guru. Destiny thrust an important rote upon me (it is mentioned in my autobiography) when my Guruji was asked to go to Lonavala and Bombay to see the work of Kuvalayananda in April and May. At that time my school, Fort High School in Bangalore, was closed and my guru asked me to stay with my sister in Bangalore while he was away. As I had not seen Mysore at that time, I accepted his request. He joined us after one and a half months and told me to enrol in a school in Mysore itself. Being an orphan, I naturally accepted the offer.

Was it because he saw the potential in you or....

No, I don't think it was potential. He said that if I stayed back in Mysore, my health would improve with the practice of asanas. I jumped at the offer as my health was a perennial problem since birth. It, however, took three years before I could start knowing what is health. During this time, he hardly paid any attention to me and all his teachings were directed towards Keshavamurthi. it was only after Keshava left, that he started instructing me. Even then it was just performing the postures one after the another like Uttanasana, Adhomukhasvanasana, Sarvangasana, Halasana, Paschimottanasana, and Trikonasana.

No instructions?

No, nothing. The other students who came from the pathshala were much older and were outsiders. Naturally, as Keshavamurthi and myself were staying in the same house and were minors, we could be easily controlled.

There were only three or four teachers in 1936 and even when the institute closed down, I don't think my guru had more than three or four teachers in the pathshala.

Did they have a lot of response from the students then?

No, there was not much response then. The classes were only open for the royal family and some others who had health problems. But entry to the yoga classes was the prerogative of the palace authorities. Outsiders had to put in an application which would then be processed by the authorities. So the yoga classes were essentially meant for the royal family, sort of private tuition.

What was the style of teaching then, how were the classes or tuitions, whatever you had back then?

The classes in those days were just like what some of you may have seen in the 1938 film. All the postures were performed through the jumpings, a style now known as 'Vinyasa Yoga', where in order to reach the final pose, one has to start with Tadasana and after finishing the final pose trace the steps back to Tadasana. That's how my guru used to teach back then. For example, take Halasana. It was done first from Tadasana - Uttanasana concave back - Uttanasana final pose - concave back again - Caturanga Dandasana - Adho Mukha Svanasana - Urdhva Mukha Svanasana - Lolasana - Halasana - Chaturanga Dandasana - Urdhva Mukha Svanasana - Adho Mukha Svanasana - Uttanasana concave back - and Tadasana. This made it one complete asana. This continued till a long time. People would not stay long in a posture but it was a dynamic form of presentation. My guru's emphasis was strongly on the yogic physical culture. So naturally the practices, then, were on physical level only. Though my Guruji was a great philosopher, he could not go beyond the yogic physical culture. He must have been under the impression that the common man is not able to consume Vedanta. He gave more attention to therapy classes. He developed these therapy classes because the jumpings became difficult for the people to follow. But in the yogashala, the jumping exercises continued and today what we hear of the Astanga Yoga of Patabhi Jois was all pioneered in the early days when my Guruji was teaching. In those days most of those taking up the subject were young. In addition, there was the need to infuse some dynamism in the classes for the royals. The royals had to keep up their kshatriyadharma, that is the martial culture. So the jumpings were definitely giving the desired benefits.

Was this the same style of teaching in the Pathshala?

Yes, there were no differences at all.

Since he was a learned man, did he also include philosophy in his teachings?

No, that's what I said earlier. He only used to make us perform jumpings. All our earlier performances were only with these sequences. Later, when I was teaching in Pune, quite a few wrestlers became interested in the subject. Pune was then famous for its wrestlers. The wrestlers were already performing thousands of Surya Namaskars a day, so it was a place where exercises with 'conative' action was very strong. They started questioning how their Surya Namaskars were different from the yogic ones. My internal observation while practising gave me the philosophic insight. My Guruji was devoting more time to pranayama and less to asana. He used to practise Sirsasana and Sarvangasana with their variations daily but nothing else. He used to only practise at home and not at the yogashala. I could see what he was doing as I used to live with him.

My real encounter began when I failed in the matriculation examinations. I realised that I had to continue to live with him. He used to lose his temper very often and there was always a slight friction between us. He would wake me up at 3 am to water the plants. One day I must have overslept and he came and slapped me. I flared up saying that I had enough of it and would commit suicide and walked out of the house. My Guruji became nervous as there was no news of me till noon. He guessed that I must have gone to a nearby river Srirangapattanakaveri to dip in. Shortly he came in a car, saw me walking and brought me back. I was 16 years old then.

Even after this incident, his attitude towards me did not change much. For some time, he was a little quiet. I continued my yoga with fervour as there was nothing else to look forward to. Thereafter, he became a little polite towards me. In April 1936, the Maharaja asked my Guruji to go to Hubli, Dharwar to propagate yoga. Guruji asked me to accompany him and three or four of his other senior students. We also visited Guruji's native place Chitradurga where we stayed for three to four days. At Hubli and Dharwar, he revealed that the actual reason for my being there was to be of assistance to them. I would have to wash their clothes, bring their bath water and do the other daily chores. I did not tell my Guruji anything but informed the others that they would have to do their own work. So they complained to my Guruji who lost his temper. I told him that I would not do their work but I would happily bring water for him and wash his clothes. This softened him up a bit and since then, he started calling me 'Deputy Commissioner'. Incidentally there was a DC by the same name in Mysore.

Then I began giving demonstrations in schools. Those days, I was given an anna (6 praise) per demonstration. On days when I used to get 10 paise, my joy knew no bounds. The highest amount I got for my demonstration then was 50 paise. I travelled from place to place for the next couple of months. In between a district magistrate suffering from hydrocele asked me for some tuitions. Somehow, by the grace of God, the hydrocele dissolved with yogic practice.

Soon after, my Guruji received a letter from Dr Gokhale who had seen my demonstration in Belgaum, inviting me to teach in Pune for a few months. I arrived in Pune and started teaching in schools and colleges. But there were some cases which were very difficult for me to handle and I used to ask my Guruji for guidance. There was a case of eczema which was handled by Dr Gokhale, which he referred to me. I corresponded with my Guruji asking him for help in treating the patient. He replied saying that if you don't know how to teach, you can send the patient to me. I then took up the challenge. I knew that Sirsasana, Sarvangasana were purificatory poses and I started treating him with these poses.

Did he ever teach you pranayama ?

No, Pranayama was learned by myself. When he came to Pune, he said that he would explain what 'Ujjayi Pranayama' is. Beyond that he never showed me anything. But I had seen him practising pranayama and a little of that background remained with me.

When did your style change from fast to what it is now?

When I taught yoga in schools and colleges, I was quite young compared to some of the students attending my classes. My own body was a bad example for yoga, because of tuberculosis and other ailments. To add to my woes, my English was not so good then, so it was a challenge to teach. I continued in the same style of the yoga pathshala and performed the jumpings in all the classes with all the members with the result that my stamina increased. My students used to get tired, but I wouldn't. This gave me the confidence and I said to myself that what they could do, I was able to do. In 1940, they closed down my classes. Thereafter, I tried to start classes in Pune but failed. Now the question arose of whether I should go back to my Guru and suffer hardships or go to my family who had arranged for a job, paying Rs15 a month, which I had earlier refused. I decided that a known devil is better then an unknown one. I made Pune my home and people started asking me to conduct therapy classes. That was the turning point in my life. As these patients who approached me could not do jumpings I started 'inter-penetrating' to find out whether I could touch the depth in each asana.

When your guru visited you, he must have noticed the change in your practice. What was his reaction?

My Guruji came to Pune in 1938, as he was invited for a lecture demonstration. His stay here was a joy for me. He saw the classes being conducted but never said a word. He only told me to continue. The next time he visited Pune was in May 1940. People knew me by then, and I had arranged for his lecture. Thereafter, he asked me to accompany him to Bombay. I had to decline as I could not leave my classes in Pune since I had to repay a loan for my sister's marriage and my services were contracted up to August 1940. He was cross with me and took Mahadeva, one of his senior pupils instead. From Bombay, he wrote me a very strong letter. To pacify him, I replied back immediately and asked permission to visit him in Bombay. I informed him that I would not get the salary for the days that I would be away. Yet I would pay my respects to him. There was a south Indian hotel in Fort, Bombay, where I had arranged for Guruji's stay and had a friend of mine, the famous film star Prahlad, to look after my Guruji in Bombay. My Guruji's lecture was to be held in the Economics Department of the Bombay University which was arranged by R P Masani (the then-Vice Chancellor of the Bombay University). My Guruji asked me to come for the demonstration. He never spoke to me before the performance. He ordered me in public to do Kandasana, Hanumanasana, Natarajasana one after the another though I was not knowing them. Because of his anger towards me, he kept me in Kapotasana for 20 minutes. He went on lecturing to the crowd and made me stay in the pose. Seeing me perform the pose as he desired, he said 'very good'.

Thereafter he had to rush to Mysore as the news of the demise of the Maharaja of Mysore reached us. The responsibility to make all arrangements for his trip fell on me. I had engaged a victoria (horsedrawn carriage) to take him with his luggage to the station. Since I walked the entire distance from the hotel to the station, I reached late. Upon my arrival at the station, my Guruji shouted at me because of my delay. My answer did not calm him and he left Bombay angry with me.

After 1940, the only other time he visited me was in 1960-61. I had married by that time and had a family. He stayed with me for a month and was a tremendously changed person.

Was this change because of your achievements or had his nature changed?

No, it was not my achievement in the field of yoga which changed his attitude towards me, but my family life with children.

Was his strong treatment reserved for you or was he like this with all his students?

No, only with Keshavarnurthi and myself.

Why did you get this so-called 'special treatment'?

Because I was very close to him and under his control. If he did the same to outsiders, they would not have come to him again. Then in 1966, there was a rupture in our relationship. He never talked to me for the next seven years. My Guruji said that I was a 'Guru drohi' (drohi = betrayer). I replied that if I was a 'Guru drohi', I would willingly undergo punishment. But I asked him what would happen to a guru who is a 'Shishya drohi'. I think J. Krishnamurti was responsible for creating this friction between my Guruji and me in 1965. For my 60th birthday celebrations, he refused to come to Pune. I asked Madhubhai to write a letter inviting him for the function in Pune. He accepted the invitation. When he came here and saw the students and the classes, there was a transformation in him. After 1975, he knew in his heart of hearts that I had faithfully carried the subject to the world.

When did you start accepting him as your Guru?

I accepted him as my Guru the day he started teaching me though his teaching was very casual. I accepted him as the person who gave me a chance to carry the subject to the world. I learnt very little from him but all the credit for what I am today goes to him. I never had any chance to learn philosophy from him. Philosophy came to me through my own practices. But I knew he was a great philosopher. There were never any discussions between us on yoga and probably that was the reason why the respect remained till the last moment. I revered him till the last moment.

Any other characteristics of your Guruji you remember?

Nobody could argue with him. Not one pundit was able to face him in debates. He had that character. He was a very strong man, physically as well as intellectually. He mellowed only when he grew old.

Thank you, Guruj

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